MAC Blogger Roundtable, Week 3
Welcome, MAC fans. This is Week 3 of the blogger roundtable. I wrote the questions, and the answers are compiled below. Enjoy. Feel free to comment if you find any of this highly brilliant or drooling drivel.
1. Bowling Green is playing Marshall this week, and that got me to thinking about Marshall's tenure in the MAC. When I think back on those years, it seems as if those were really the high years for MAC football. The league had the most talent, the most success against BCS teams, the best coaches, etc, in its history. More than one MAC coach at the time said that they were pegging their programs to compete with Marshall. Marshall moved on, and in that time, the quality of MAC Football has fallen back to where it was before. My question is this: do you think competing with Marshall did make everyone in the conference better, or do you think that was a coincidence. (Feel free to reject the premise as well).
Rasor on Zips: I think Marshall caught a string of elite players, and that is what gave the league a boost. I really think that two or three players can be what makes the difference between a great year for the MAC and a so-so year.
Temple Football Forever: Coincidence. Once Randy Moss and Bryon Leftwich left, Marshall wasn't as good.
Over the Pylon: I think like a lot of things in life, a rising tide lifts all boats. It certainly happened back then with Pennington, Moss, Big Ben, Leftwich, etc. Unfortunately for the MAC, that sort of thing hasn't happened since. Sure, there were minor successes and good seasons like last year's BSU team, NIU with Michael Turner, or CMU with LeFevour recently, but certainly nothing like the sustained excellence when those aforementioned players were at Marshall and Miami. It also doesn't help that Miami is a bombed out football program now and Marshall left. That's sort of the inverse of rising tide.
Let's Go Rockets: Having Marshall in the MAC changed the way the nation perceived the MAC. Their name and reputation added an extra dose of validity in their eyes and their presence swayed the masses to think the MAC was under the thumb of "Mighty Marshall". Marshall won the MAC Championship from 1997-2000 and again in 2002. Many of those battles were with the Toledo Rockets. Randy Moss, Byron Leftwich and Chad Pennington all came through the Marshall program. Toledo began it's most recent dominating tenure in the MAC in 2001, when UT defeated Marshall in the MAC Championship game. For the next several years, Toledo was in top form and had much success in those seasons. Until the decline in 2006-2008, Marshall was a very strong competitor in the MAC and helped dispel the stigma that the MAC wasn't solid, serious football.
"Marshall moved on, and in that time, the quality of MAC Football has fallen back to where it was before". Once they moved to C-USA, Marshall's record dropped, losing out of conference games to current MAC schools. Was the league bettered by having them ? Yes. Did they make the league single-handedly ? Not at all. There are a lot of strong football players and coaches who helped shape the MAC before, and since Marshall was a part of it. There are strong MAC teams this season, and their strength has zero to do with Marshall's football team. The MAC has since won games against BCS conferences, so it wasn't just Marshall "challenging" the rest of the league. Marshall hasn't had a winning season since leaving the MAC in 2005.
"Marshall moved on, and in that time, the quality of MAC Football has fallen back to where it was before". Once they moved to C-USA, Marshall's record dropped, losing out of conference games to current MAC schools. Was the league bettered by having them ? Yes. Did they make the league single-handedly ? Not at all. There are a lot of strong football players and coaches who helped shape the MAC before, and since Marshall was a part of it. There are strong MAC teams this season, and their strength has zero to do with Marshall's football team. The MAC has since won games against BCS conferences, so it wasn't just Marshall "challenging" the rest of the league. Marshall hasn't had a winning season since leaving the MAC in 2005.
Red and Black Attack: Absolutely. Marshall was head and shoulders above everybody for the longest time. Marshall winning 5 out of the 6 championships from 1997-2002 made a lot of people take notice. Both offenses and more importantly defenses were elevated and then you saw the magical 2003 season happen. Defense, it's a big part of football and we have forgot this notion. Marshall and those Miami teams always had good defenses. Now who do we aim to beat? The easiest way to topple CMU or any of these other teams succeeding lately is to construct an offense to put up more points then the opponent, because it seems like teams have given up trying to stop these potent offenses.
FalconBlog: Well, I wrote the question so my answer might be a little obvious, but it is my opinion that the prospect of keeping up with Marshall did drive our teams to be stronger for a few years. Perhaps the resulting decline is not so much the result of Marshall leaving as other factors, but those Marshall teams definitely forced everyone in the MAC to raise their game. Also, begging to differ on one small point, those Marshall teams were loaded, and not just the result of one or two marquis players.
FalconBlog: Well, I wrote the question so my answer might be a little obvious, but it is my opinion that the prospect of keeping up with Marshall did drive our teams to be stronger for a few years. Perhaps the resulting decline is not so much the result of Marshall leaving as other factors, but those Marshall teams definitely forced everyone in the MAC to raise their game. Also, begging to differ on one small point, those Marshall teams were loaded, and not just the result of one or two marquis players.
Fire up Chips: It (Marshall winning) made the conference appear to be better than it was, but it didn't make the teams better. I can promise you it didn't make CMU better nor Eastern Michigan or Buffalo.
2. The MAC finally had some out of conference success this weekend with nice wins by CMU and UT against BCS opposition. I think all of us have had the experience of seeing our team win a big out-of-conference game and then have the conference season end in disappointment. Do you think MAC fans (or teams) put too much priority on winning the big BCS game?
Rasor: I think MAC fans feel the inferiority complex that BCS schools seek to perpetuate. Anytime you beat one of them, it feels great. It validates your program, and it gets the attention of non-midmajor fans. That said, these wins generally don't mean much come November.
TFF: I don't think MAC teams put enough emphasis on winning the big BCS game. Look at Houston. Huge win. Toledo did a great job, as did CMU. Nothing brings up the prestige of the conference like wins over BCS schools.
OTP: I think it's only natural that the MAC fans and programs put a gigantic amount of weight on beating a BCS school, namely because of how their in-state BCS brethren have treated them. CMU is a damn good football program but will always play third fiddle to State and Michigan. Same with Ball State. We were undefeated last season and on paper worlds better than IU... yet most BSU fans acted as if we had won the Super Bowl. For me, it's always about MAC play. That's when you can judge your team accordingly against similar programs and players. Your out of conference means little if you don't do well in conference. The MAC schedule is where you earn your Bowl trips, etc. Plus, you're competing against schools you're recruiting against. All much bigger than a celebratory win over a BCS team which may or may not be noteworthy.
2. The MAC finally had some out of conference success this weekend with nice wins by CMU and UT against BCS opposition. I think all of us have had the experience of seeing our team win a big out-of-conference game and then have the conference season end in disappointment. Do you think MAC fans (or teams) put too much priority on winning the big BCS game?
Rasor: I think MAC fans feel the inferiority complex that BCS schools seek to perpetuate. Anytime you beat one of them, it feels great. It validates your program, and it gets the attention of non-midmajor fans. That said, these wins generally don't mean much come November.
TFF: I don't think MAC teams put enough emphasis on winning the big BCS game. Look at Houston. Huge win. Toledo did a great job, as did CMU. Nothing brings up the prestige of the conference like wins over BCS schools.
OTP: I think it's only natural that the MAC fans and programs put a gigantic amount of weight on beating a BCS school, namely because of how their in-state BCS brethren have treated them. CMU is a damn good football program but will always play third fiddle to State and Michigan. Same with Ball State. We were undefeated last season and on paper worlds better than IU... yet most BSU fans acted as if we had won the Super Bowl. For me, it's always about MAC play. That's when you can judge your team accordingly against similar programs and players. Your out of conference means little if you don't do well in conference. The MAC schedule is where you earn your Bowl trips, etc. Plus, you're competing against schools you're recruiting against. All much bigger than a celebratory win over a BCS team which may or may not be noteworthy.
LGR: Not at all. One of the most important things we can do as a conference, to gain traction nationally, is to win against big (BCS) opponents. It's a good recruiting tool and a way to make our programs stronger, more respectable, and more enticing to high school football players and opposing schools (potential opponents). Respect from the writers and poll-sters for the MAC reflects favorably on it's teams and is a very important part of making/keeping the MAC a legitimate contender. The MAC is a competitive league, and often these disappointing ends to a bright season are testament to the talent in the conference. The East is wide open, and there is always a race in the West. You can't take the night off for any MAC game, because at any moment, you can get snipped.
RBA: There is never enough priority on winning BCS games. Case in point: Northern Illinois' 2003 season. Every coach says their main goal is to win the MAC yadda yadda yadda. For a MAC team to get the most exposure media-wise, then the most important thing to do is upset BCS teams. We beat a ranked Maryland, Alabama on the road and Iowa State and the media frenzy was on. Sure we didn't win the MAC, Miami did over Bowling Green. But did we get the most exposure? Very likely, even though a Ben Roethlisberger-led Miami team only lost the first game against Iowa and then went on not to lose a game after that. BCS wins are nice to put a team on the map, but of course our fans are craving for a MAC Championship, something we haven't won since 1983. Yeesh. LeFevour started winning MAC Championships, but was criticized that he wasn't able to beat BCS teams. It's just the sad state of our conference right now.
FB: A lot of people talk about these games as opportunities to improve the MAC's reputation and national image, etc. I don't see it that way. I don't think, in fact, that the haves in college football will ever have anything but disrespect for the have nots, regardless of how many times we might win. They simply write it off by saying that if we had to play their conference schedule every week, we could not consistently win. Why worry about what other people think of you...those things you can't change? Even in 2003, it was considered a freak occurrence. With that, I believe we put too much emphasis on big games. Having said that, the walk to the car at Purdue and Pitt were two of them sweetest things I have experienced as a sports fan.
FUC: BCS games are how we pay the bills....it is how MAC schools keep the lights on and the Gatorade cooler full.
It also helps bring in a ton of money from increased attendance. CMU's game against MSU was a 3 hour infomercial for Central Michigan University. Given the statewide love affair with MSU and CMU's victory, Central will probably get a few thousand new applicants next year...that is a ton of $$ for a University in a cash strapped state.
FYI, since CMU started winning football games in 2006, applications jumped 10 - 20%. If you check US NEWS, CMU was the most exclusive MAC school in 2008, simply because of a few football games we won in the years before.
3. Dan Lefevour took the lead in career total offense for the MAC. I'm interested in what the thoughts are around the table. Where does he rank on the all-time list of MAC QBs?
Rasor: I don't think he has the buzz of some of his predecessors because he's not going to be a top-20 pick. As far as winning games in the MAC, I would take him over Frye, Roethlisberger, and Leftwich.
TFF: Behind Big Ben, but a solid No. 2.
OTP: Lefevour is a good college QB but far from elite. Look at the QBs out of the MAC in recent memory... Byron Leftwich... Ben Roethlisberger.... Chad Pennington. Lefevour is clearly behind those guys in talent and certainly behind those guys in success at the next level. Or in his case, potential success. I would say if pressed that when it is all said and done, Lefevour will find himself 5th on the all-time list of MAC QBs. Behind those three above, and one Nate Davis.
FB: A lot of people talk about these games as opportunities to improve the MAC's reputation and national image, etc. I don't see it that way. I don't think, in fact, that the haves in college football will ever have anything but disrespect for the have nots, regardless of how many times we might win. They simply write it off by saying that if we had to play their conference schedule every week, we could not consistently win. Why worry about what other people think of you...those things you can't change? Even in 2003, it was considered a freak occurrence. With that, I believe we put too much emphasis on big games. Having said that, the walk to the car at Purdue and Pitt were two of them sweetest things I have experienced as a sports fan.
FUC: BCS games are how we pay the bills....it is how MAC schools keep the lights on and the Gatorade cooler full.
It also helps bring in a ton of money from increased attendance. CMU's game against MSU was a 3 hour infomercial for Central Michigan University. Given the statewide love affair with MSU and CMU's victory, Central will probably get a few thousand new applicants next year...that is a ton of $$ for a University in a cash strapped state.
FYI, since CMU started winning football games in 2006, applications jumped 10 - 20%. If you check US NEWS, CMU was the most exclusive MAC school in 2008, simply because of a few football games we won in the years before.
3. Dan Lefevour took the lead in career total offense for the MAC. I'm interested in what the thoughts are around the table. Where does he rank on the all-time list of MAC QBs?
Rasor: I don't think he has the buzz of some of his predecessors because he's not going to be a top-20 pick. As far as winning games in the MAC, I would take him over Frye, Roethlisberger, and Leftwich.
TFF: Behind Big Ben, but a solid No. 2.
OTP: Lefevour is a good college QB but far from elite. Look at the QBs out of the MAC in recent memory... Byron Leftwich... Ben Roethlisberger.... Chad Pennington. Lefevour is clearly behind those guys in talent and certainly behind those guys in success at the next level. Or in his case, potential success. I would say if pressed that when it is all said and done, Lefevour will find himself 5th on the all-time list of MAC QBs. Behind those three above, and one Nate Davis.
LGR: Based on what he has accomplished so far in his college career, he is a top 5 all time QB in the MAC. He has shown amazing numbers both through the air and on the ground. His freshman season, he lead his team to a 10-4 record, while 3 of those 4 losses were out of conference games. His overall record is 27-16, but of those 16 losses, 12 were out of conference opponents. With only 4 losses in the MAC starting his senior campaign, he has been a dominating QB.
RBA: LeFevour is the black sheep of MAC quarterbacks. What is this running that he does? MAC quarterbacks (Leftwich, Roethlisberger) are supposed to stand 7-feet tall in the pocket and launch the ball over the field. Maybe he can convince me throughout the season, but I'd even put him behind Gradkowski, Frye or one of those BG QBs. What other good running QBs have there been in the MAC? Josh Cribbs?
FB: He's had an advantage statistically by starting as a Freshmen. He certainly has won titles and been highly productive, and now has a big time upset to hang on his belt too. Rothligsberger seemed head and shoulders above the league during his last season, though, and I have never gotten that sense from LeFevour. I would put him in the top 5.
FB: He's had an advantage statistically by starting as a Freshmen. He certainly has won titles and been highly productive, and now has a big time upset to hang on his belt too. Rothligsberger seemed head and shoulders above the league during his last season, though, and I have never gotten that sense from LeFevour. I would put him in the top 5.
FUC: I think pundits make the mistake of thinking of the NFL as an affirmation of college success. They seem to feel that because Tim Lester -- former WMU great -- didn't go on to do great things in the NFL than he can't be considered better than MAC QB's who did...I disagree with that.
4. A little side wagering....when will Miami score?
Rasor: Fourth quarter on Saturday on a bad longsnap that sails over the punter's head and through the endzone. Safety.
TFF: Next game. Miami has two quarterbacks who have had some success last year, so scoring can't be far behind.
OTP: If not this weekend against WMU, who has severely disappointed me this season, then certainly the next weekend against Kent. A better question is when will Miami score more than their opponent, and I have to be honest, were I a betting man, some of my money would be on "Never this season".
I think Dan LeFevour is the best dual threat QB in the history of the MAC and definitely above players like Big Ben,Charlie Frye and Byron Leftwich, based on his stats, highlights, and championships.
Chad Pennington is the player I consider the "best" in MAC history at the QB position, but Dan Lefevour has a few more games to unseat him.
4. A little side wagering....when will Miami score?
Rasor: Fourth quarter on Saturday on a bad longsnap that sails over the punter's head and through the endzone. Safety.
TFF: Next game. Miami has two quarterbacks who have had some success last year, so scoring can't be far behind.
OTP: If not this weekend against WMU, who has severely disappointed me this season, then certainly the next weekend against Kent. A better question is when will Miami score more than their opponent, and I have to be honest, were I a betting man, some of my money would be on "Never this season".
LGR: Miami will definitely get some points on the board in the coming weeks. They'll at least get a FG against WMU. I would look for more offensive production against Kent State in the 4th week. The schedule looks awfully tough for them down the stretch, so if they don't beat KSU, I don't think they'll get any wins this season.
RBA: Against Western Michigan in the 1st quarter. They couldn't even beat Indiana.
FB: Eventually they will have to score. I guess. Anyway, I think a third straight shutout is unlikely, so I'm going to say early 3rd.
FB: Eventually they will have to score. I guess. Anyway, I think a third straight shutout is unlikely, so I'm going to say early 3rd.
FUC: They better score some 5 Hour Energy Drink, tiger balm, and cortisone shots for Daniel Rudabaugh, their embattled QB. I have never seen a QB's knees literally knock together in terror as the ball is hiked to him like Rudabaugh. I am not sure if it's his fualt though...but when you see his arms trembling you have to feel bad for him.
5. There are 11 MAC non-conference games this week, a number against Big Ten teams. What's the over-under on MAC wins? In particular, NIU and UT have interesting matchups. Thoughts?
Rasor: Six wins sounds right to me. I think NIU can win. Despite being listed second, Toledo will not have anything near a home game at Cleveland Browns Stadium. The Zips should beat Indiana, the first Big Ten opponent ever to visit Akron.
TFF: I think the MAC wins one game. I won't say which one.
OTP: Here's the certain wins... CMU/AlcornSt, BG/Marshall, Ohio/CalPoly,
Here's the certain losses... Temple/PSU, EMU/Michigan,
Here's the toss ups... OSU/Toledo (call me crazy), BSU/Army, NIU/PU, IU/Akron, Iowa St./Kent, Buffalo/UCF
Football is supposed to be fun and you can tell for Rudabaugh every time he throws a pick he gives his coaches that look: "There is no way you can keep me out here for another series...have mercy."....Football is no longer fun at Miami of Ohio.
They might score against Western, but in a rivalry game against Cincy the week after-- good night. I know Brian Kelly, he will run that score up like a slot machine on tilt....ding, ding, ding, ding.......touchdown Cincy, touchdown Cincy, touchdown Cincy, touchdown Cincy. (Editor's award for funniest answer)
5. There are 11 MAC non-conference games this week, a number against Big Ten teams. What's the over-under on MAC wins? In particular, NIU and UT have interesting matchups. Thoughts?
Rasor: Six wins sounds right to me. I think NIU can win. Despite being listed second, Toledo will not have anything near a home game at Cleveland Browns Stadium. The Zips should beat Indiana, the first Big Ten opponent ever to visit Akron.
TFF: I think the MAC wins one game. I won't say which one.
OTP: Here's the certain wins... CMU/AlcornSt, BG/Marshall, Ohio/CalPoly,
Here's the certain losses... Temple/PSU, EMU/Michigan,
Here's the toss ups... OSU/Toledo (call me crazy), BSU/Army, NIU/PU, IU/Akron, Iowa St./Kent, Buffalo/UCF
LGR: The MAC teams will be facing some strong competition this week. Toledo has the toughest match up against OSU and will certainly have their hands full. NIU has Purdue, a tough match up as well, if Purdue gets their running game going. I think we'll be lucky to see one of those two MAC teams win. EMU and Temple have Michigan and Penn State, respectively, and we don't expect either of those teams to stand against those Big Ten teams. Ball State and Akron won't be much help facing Army and Indiana - Army is struggling but so is Ball State - Akron is better than Ball State but probably not better than Indiana. Indiana has squeezed out some victories so far, narrowly beating Eastern Kentucky and Western Michigan. And, Kent State facing Iowa State won't likely have many fireworks. It's not looking like a very happy weekend for the MAC. However, any wins the MAC gets this weekend will be strong victories for our conference so we're pulling for everyone to play their best.
RBA: The over/under is 5. Mid-major on mid-major crime: BSU-Army, Indiana-Akron, Cal Poly-Ohio, BG-Marshall, Iowa St-KSU & Buffalo-UCF. Super BCS upset watch: EMU-Michigan, NIU-Purdue & OSU-Toledo. The only gimme win is CMU over (drumroll please) Acorn State.
FN: I'm going 3....BG, CMU, and Ohio.
RBA: The over/under is 5. Mid-major on mid-major crime: BSU-Army, Indiana-Akron, Cal Poly-Ohio, BG-Marshall, Iowa St-KSU & Buffalo-UCF. Super BCS upset watch: EMU-Michigan, NIU-Purdue & OSU-Toledo. The only gimme win is CMU over (drumroll please) Acorn State.
FN: I'm going 3....BG, CMU, and Ohio.
FUC: UT against a confused and befuddled Ohio State team is a pick which seems...almost safe? I can't say it...I want to....but I can't push myself to say UT will pull off the biggest upset in the program's history against OSU in Cleveland...I think it will be real close though.
6. MAC power poll. Rank 'em 1-13.
I think Army beats up on a Ball State team which must be on the verge of mutiny at this point. Even Miami of Ohio could have beat New Hampshire....or at least Mike Haywood would let New Hampshire media members know that Miami is the "Harvard of Ohio."
Also, Indiana sneaks by Akron @ InfoKnowledgeTechProcessingHardware Stadium.
6. MAC power poll. Rank 'em 1-13.
- CMU
- BG
- NIU
- UT
- Buffalo
- OU
- WMU
- Akron
- KSU
- Temple
- EMU
- BSU
- Miami
Rockets hampered by 8th place ranking by Temple.
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